Snake Summon Balance Suggestion

[Black Rain]

This problem has been on my mind since pretty much the introduction of the snake summon and I've been voicing my opinion very clearly in the #silvergoldnitro channel in discord, but here's the forum post for the full breakdown, thinking and suggestions for change.

The problem: Snake summon is way too strong compared to other summons. The power difference is very unbalanced, and considering summons are being changed and released as the game goes on, they should at least offer similar levels of power, regardless of the summon.

Suggestion summary: Reduce Snake summon's base HP, or reduce it's auto damage.

Analysis breakdown:
Summons can basically be classed into 2 categories; Utility (their special jutsu is the sole reason for picking, and their auto damage is not relied on for pressure), DPS (Summons that have an offensive jutsu, but also have good auto damage). 

Utility summons (Mist clam, Leaf slug) all have very low base hp. Their base hp is 400 which means a single average full combo can kill them. I won't be comparing snake to the utility summons, since it's classed as a DPS summon.

DPS summons (Fuuma dog, leaf toad, mist panda, snake). All of these summons have 500 hp, except the snake which has 600. While this may not seem like that big of a change, it means you have to invest on average 2 full combos to kill the snake. This means you are waiting an entire extra set of cooldowns to deal with this summon and this power difference when compared to every other summon in this category gives snake a very very strong edge. 

This problem gets even worse when you compare the auto damage. All DPS summons have an auto damage of 61, except snake which has 99 (Sidenote, I'm very curious as to how this was decided). It's important to note that while summon jutsu's can be very good, the main pressure of a summon comes from it's consistent pressure and the snake's pressure surpasses all of the other summons by far, it's not even remotely close. 

 

Tl;dr the snake has too much hp (20% higher) and too high auto attack damage (62% more DPS from autos) when comparing with every other summon.

 

Suggestion for change:

• Nerf snake base hp to 500. I don't know the reasoning on why it had to be the only summon in the game with 600, but because of this requiring 2 full combos to kill instead of 1 on average, it gives the summon a monumental power difference. 
• Nerf snake auto attack
  • If the base HP is also reduced to 500, then reduce auto damage to ~80. This gives it a more reasonable increase in DPS compared to other summons rather than the 62% which it is on currently.
  • If the base HP is not reduced to 500, then reduce auto damage to ~50. A single summon that is available to everyone should not overtake every other summon by such a margin. For diversity, there should be advantages and drawbacks for picking each summon, and right now snake has none.

[Monterio]

nice forum post hehe

[Accelerator]

Nerf snake, fix hawk 

[Yamikami]

Well to get Snake you actually HAVE to go missing which can be a downside for some people especially with the pardon cooldown. You also need to have access to the Lab (which most people actually exploit to get into).

I think Snake has more hp/damage than other summons due to the fact that it doesn't have any CC. Literally every other summon other than the Slug (whose purpose is to heal) has CC. Dog has stun, monkey has KB, weasel has KB, hawk has snare/slow, toad has stun, clam has stun, panda has stun.

While the damage it has can be impactful, the CC that some of the other summons have can be much stronger in certain cases so I wouldn't change the snake summon too much. 

[Volo]

Great suggestions rain, I think the HP to 500 and dmg to 80 would balance it out just fine considering 99 just feels like overkill for a summon, especially when you take into acc the possibility of that 99 landing while the caster is also landing a cc combo 

[Seifer]

4 hours ago, Yamikami said:

Well to get Snake you actually HAVE to go missing which can be a downside for some people especially with the pardon cooldown. You also need to have access to the Lab (which most people actually exploit to get into).

I think Snake has more hp/damage than other summons due to the fact that it doesn't have any CC. Literally every other summon other than the Slug (whose purpose is to heal) has CC. Dog has stun, monkey has KB, weasel has KB, hawk has snare/slow, toad has stun, clam has stun, panda has stun.

While the damage it has can be impactful, the CC that some of the other summons have can be much stronger in certain cases so I wouldn't change the snake summon too much. 

What Yami said. It does not have any snares, stuns, knock backs. While it has slightly higher dmg/hp. You having to do an extra hit on the snake compared to getting a 500dmg roll off a panda stun is the trade.

With Panda, Clam, Weasel being among the strongest summons and being village summons, the snake which is available to everyone being on the same level is not really a bad thing.

I do not mind making balance changes, however I would not just nerf snake without adjusting the other summons. The most underwhelming being slug, and the most overwhelming being panda.

[0412]

cool concept!

[Imhotep]

You're insane if you think not having some mediocre CC justifies being unkillable and doing 60% more damage than any other summon.

It also has DoT, maplocking and preventing healing. Nerf this mongrel summon please, there's no reason to take any other. Except maybe a Clam, depending on your mastery.

[Qadim]

On 3/13/2022 at 7:26 PM, Seifer said:

With Panda, Clam, Weasel being among the strongest summons and being village summons, the snake which is available to everyone being on the same level is not really a bad thing.

The problem is it is not as strong as the other summons. The summon pathing and AI is gimicky and special moves hardly hit, compared to the absolute consistent constant pressure a snake offers. 

Compare likely scenarios where a summon wouldn't be kited easily:

Scenario 1: A medic reviving
Snake vs Panda - snake will make it impossible to rev the player because in the 10 seconds it can do 1300 damage. Panda may stun and cancel the rev yes (on a very high RNG chance), but the snake will literally make it impossible and kill the medic.

Scenario 2: Fighting 2v1 in the DZ
Snake vs Panda/Dog/Weasel - dealing with 2 players + a summon is hard enough, but you can invest one full combo to deal with the summon at not much chakra cost, and then fight a very difficult situation (2v1). Vs a snake, you will not kill it in 1 combo, and dealing with it becomes impossible and it's doing 99 damage per attack, you cannot stand still to charge even if you get less pressure from the 2 players. A 2v1 + dog/weasel/panda is very difficult. A 2v1 + snake is impossible.

[Shinigami]

# buff slug?

[Fuketzu]

I think that before fixing snake, they should also buff toad, fix slug, fix hawk, and buff normal puppets, since in leaf case, snake is our 'best option, since slug is mediocre, and toad average/below sand and mist summons, mist summons or atleast panda are very strong comparing them to the other summons in my opinion but i honestly didnt go deep in the summon best-option difference 

[Hageshi]

Happy to see posts about summons. Supporting all summon balance/rework suggestions!

[Boruto Uzuhiko]

To get snake you need to meet minimum reqs, unlike any other single summon, nothing else to add.
By the other hand, fix/buff Slug.