Poison Scalpel

[Yamikami]

Since Advanced is out of the picture can we please nerf this jutsu once and for all? Most people were going by the logic that stuff like Water/Med, WM/Med and other Med hybrids are broken right now cause they won't get advanced, but if advanced is not happening then they seriously need a nerf.

Poison Scalpel instantly stuns people and leads to combos that can be more damaging than combos that some Lightning combinations can dish out. I thought that the whole point of the INT side of Medic was that it plays off poison DoT, but right now the main focus of this mastery is to stun with Poison Scalpel and then spit out every instant cast you have to burst the enemy as much as possible. 

There is two ways I think this jutsu could be nerfed:

1. Make the jutsu silence for 0.5 seconds instead of stunning for 0.5 seconds. 

2. Remove the stun from Poison Scalpel, but give that same stun to Poison Cloud jutsu. The tradeoff here is that instead of being able to stun a single target every 5 seconds, you get a bigger AoE stun that has an 18 second cooldown. This way Medic still has one useful cancel for stuff like Crescent or Cutter, but it's instant combo potential is greatly reduced.

 

[Ichika]

I don't even play int medic like that but I already know by implanting these nerfs it will hit way too hard, if you add the first one for example, a silence for 0.5 seconds up close won't do shit when you know damn well someone can just throw jutsus/burst while being silenced for that long, and int medic lacks burst so if you even want to attempt to trade off damage you will need to fully rely on your 2nd mastery and you'd still most likely take more damage.

The 2nd idea is better but still a huge nerf, Scalpel would just end up like a close range shuriken probably even weaker imo since you can actually shoot shuriken far range, point is Scalpel wouldn't really be good then you just gotta compare it to it's other offensive attack kits which is only 3 jutsus in total, we all know Scalpel was carrying the offensive side of Int Medic and by turning in into a jutsu that doesn't even snare/silence/stun it won't even be worth hitting because we all know someone like a WM for example would just keep meleeing it without fear of getting stunned or anything and depending on the sword would get out damaged, same with tai too and plenty of other examples with other jutsus.

Other masteries have something

Water: Good defensive with the double sub, Water prison combo starter

Fire: Good burst

Wind: Good burst, Homing

Earth: Good Aoes, Homing

Lighting: Stuns (I mean the mastery is pretty iffy anyways well known for being asked for a buff)

Tai: Double sub, Great cancels, Melees

Wm Str: Homings, Melees

Int Wm: Traps, Good damage,

Chakra Med: Great heals, Senbon damage pretty good but the heals alone is what makes it a good mastery for support.

Now Int Medic: Scalpel spam stun good combo starter with low CD, heals, helps other masteries with combos (mainly cuz of Scalpel but also senbon)

But with the Nerfs you asked for Int Med would have: Bad heals (It's meant for pvp in the first place it's the offensive side for medic) The main damage for this mastery would be nerf pretty badly due to anyone easily out damaging the Int Medic Scalpel most of the time, Poison cloud would be pretty good and that's pretty much it. Senbon has always been a good jutsu but it's balanced for a reason most aren't landing that 24/7, Either way Poison Cloud and Senbon alone won't cut it for making Int Medic a good mastery.

And here's the last thing, I understand if this nerf was asked if Int medic was very top tier not only in 1v1s but also in team fights, but no it's teamfight kit is decent lol, If you bring up the heals, Most int medic heals are weak either way due to the high int they have for 1v1s and by spamming heals they constantly put their poison senbon on CD which leaves the mastery with 2 attack jutsus, Poison cloud isn't bad for team fights but comparing it to other jutsus kit's it's not all that at all, Scalpel is up close and one tile in team fight's that's a pain to use, still a good jutsu but as for a team fighting jutsu overall it's not that good.

Shit like EARTH/MED is a good team fight mastery combo because the EARTH KIT alone carries it. That's like bringing up Wm/Earth, it's still good either way, even if you mention the fact that Medic shares the same Intellect path as Earth which makes it better, Solo Wm is still better than Solo Int Med either way, and Earth/Wm vs Earth/Int Med in 1v1s skill difference isn't far off at all too, I'd even favor Earth/Wm winnning as well. Then we have Solo Taijutsu which is already great for 1v1s, but if you have high agility and pair up with a bunch of Earth users, You can be doing a lot just meleeing people in prison with high damage instantly which is great for team fights, Not even counting the fact that you can also do Tai/Earth, Either way I don't see a reason to nerf Int Medic LIKE THIS, Scalpel is a jutsu alone that needs nerf but considering the whole kit alone it's pretty much overrated.

[Souei]

It's definently in a weird spot.

The reason INT path was touched at first was > poison senbon used to be what scalpel is now but with a longer stun duration > this was changed by adding cast time on it due to player's criticism of a flicker combo.

Now we have the same scenario with scalpel, again due to player's criticism of a flicker combo.

In my honest opinion as someone who has used medical path for a very long time, I believe that removing the stun is the correct path for balance. I would give it the larger hitbox it used to have, with a slightly longer cooldown. It would still be a very good close combat jutsu, fairly easy to land against a melee threat, easy to place in a chain combo being an instant cast damaging jutsu, just not as the starter.

[Indra]

Why are others talking about other classes when we can end this global medic pandemic once and for all? Focus!

taking off the stun of the current best move of the game wont ruin the mastery. Even tho its the int part of a supportive mastery, the whole point of medics being too strong is that both side complements each others.

You want to go int Medic? Well the supportive path still works for you. Others sub path masteries have different damage stats scaling. You want to use both? invest stats points into it. Medic does not have this problem since the chakra path rely on a stat you need to play the intelect path. 

Medical ninja Have the best offensive jutsu and also the best supportive jutsu. the perfect class with no real downside. This is the reason its the best second mastery(and best solo mastery when well played). 1 of the 2 path will automatically be good with every masteries and the intelect ones will work well with the 2 paths.

Please take off the poison scalpel stun. Its gives way too much combo oppenings and doesnt fit with the poisoning them of the intelect mastery.

[Etsu]

Love Posion Cloud idea

[Balcoin]

No if we wanna go off the same logic as int med being more focused on the poison wouldn't it make more sense to maybe instead of adding stuns why not just focus on the actual poison and increase the dot damage and maybe a slow effect for poison from cloud idk just a thought 

[Yamikami]

Just now, Wanheda said:

No if we wanna go off the same logic as int med being more focused on the poison wouldn't it make more sense to maybe instead of adding stuns why not just focus on the actual poison and increase the dot damage and maybe a slow effect for poison from cloud idk just a thought 

If DoT was to be increased then none of the jutsu expect Poison Senbon should have CC.

[Balcoin]

1 minute ago, Yamikami said:

If DoT was to be increased then none of the jutsu expect Poison Senbon should have CC.

Which would be fine

[Arashi Himitsu]

Agree with this, the mastery is meant to be poison focussed so in return for nerfing scalpel you should buff poison debuff across the board.

[Taijutsu]

19 minutes ago, Ichika said:

I don't even play int medic like that but I already know by implanting these nerfs it will hit way too hard, if you add the first one for example, a silence for 0.5 seconds up close won't do shit when you know damn well someone can just throw jutsus/burst while being silenced for that long, and int medic lacks burst so if you even want to attempt to trade off damage you will need to fully rely on your 2nd mastery and you'd still most likely take more damage.

The 2nd idea is better but still a huge nerf, Scalpel would just end up like a close range shuriken probably even weaker imo since you can actually shoot shuriken far range, point is Scalpel wouldn't really be good then you just gotta compare it to it's other offensive attack kits which is only 3 jutsus in total, we all know Scalpel was carrying the offensive side of Int Medic and by turning in into a jutsu that doesn't even snare/silence/stun it won't even be worth hitting because we all know someone like a WM for example would just keep meleeing it without fear of getting stunned or anything and depending on the sword would get out damaged, same with tai too and plenty of other examples with other jutsus.

Other masteries have something

Water: Good defensive with the double sub, Water prison combo starter

Fire: Good burst

Wind: Good burst, Homing

Earth: Good Aoes, Homing

Lighting: Stuns (I mean the mastery is pretty iffy anyways well known for being asked for a buff)

Tai: Double sub, Great cancels, Melees

Wm Str: Homings, Melees

Int Wm: Traps, Good damage,

Chakra Med: Great heals, Senbon damage pretty good but the heals alone is what makes it a good mastery for support.

Now Int Medic: Scalpel spam stun good combo starter with low CD, heals, helps other masteries with combos (mainly cuz of Scalpel but also senbon)

But with the Nerfs you asked for Int Med would have: Bad heals (It's meant for pvp in the first place it's the offensive side for medic) The main damage for this mastery would be nerf pretty badly due to anyone easily out damaging the Int Medic Scalpel most of the time, Poison cloud would be pretty good and that's pretty much it. Senbon has always been a good jutsu but it's balanced for a reason most aren't landing that 24/7, Either way Poison Cloud and Senbon alone won't cut it for making Int Medic a good mastery.

And here's the last thing, I understand if this nerf was asked if Int medic was very top tier not only in 1v1s but also in team fights, but no it's teamfight kit is decent lol, If you bring up the heals, Most int medic heals are weak either way due to the high int they have for 1v1s and by spamming heals they constantly put their poison senbon on CD which leaves the mastery with 2 attack jutsus, Poison cloud isn't bad for team fights but comparing it to other jutsus kit's it's not all that at all, Scalpel is up close and one tile in team fight's that's a pain to use, still a good jutsu but as for a team fighting jutsu overall it's not that good.

Shit like EARTH/MED is a good team fight mastery combo because the EARTH KIT alone carries it. That's like bringing up Wm/Earth, it's still good either way, even if you mention the fact that Medic shares the same Intellect path as Earth which makes it better, Solo Wm is still better than Solo Int Med either way, and Earth/Wm vs Earth/Int Med in 1v1s skill difference isn't far off at all too, I'd even favor Earth/Wm winnning as well. Then we have Solo Taijutsu which is already great for 1v1s, but if you have high agility and pair up with a bunch of Earth users, You can be doing a lot just meleeing people in prison with high damage instantly which is great for team fights, Not even counting the fact that you can also do Tai/Earth, Either way I don't see a reason to nerf Int Medic LIKE THIS, Scalpel is a jutsu alone that needs nerf but considering the whole kit alone it's pretty much overrated.

When a mastery that is not even meant to be known for stuns is able to stun more often than Lightning (not saying it has better stuns just that Scalpel is way more landable and has low CD) and also gives you highest DoT in game and access to heals you know something is wrong. 

Balance INT Med in a way where it is more poison focused than being focused around landing Flicker Scalpels and comboing dumb amounts of instant damage. 

[Ichika]

23 minutes ago, Taijutsu said:

When a mastery that is not even meant to be known for stuns is able to stun more often than Lightning (not saying it has better stuns just that Scalpel is way more landable and has low CD) and also gives you highest DoT in game and access to heals you know something is wrong. 

Balance INT Med in a way where it is more poison focused than being focused around landing Flicker Scalpels and comboing dumb amounts of instant damage. 

I agree but it also has to be a balanced to the point where int med doesn't become very bad and these suggestions just make the mastery bad

[Arsonist]

Poison Scalpel can be easily dodged by running diagonal. If you don't want to get flicker scalpeled, and then comboed, Try to not leave yourself open for attack.

[Imhotep]

Reducing the stun time so there's only one instant cast follow up per Scalpel is a good idea.

Otherwise, to leave the other stuff untouched I'd look at moving Rev up in Chk requirement to like 80.

Scalpel is very cancerous with a lot of kits in 1v1's but I'd argue Medic just provides too much utility with very little investment. Heal, Self Heal, Rev, DoTs to stop cloak/maplock, 2 stuns (1 of which is the infamous instant-cast combo set-up); all for a 25 Int investment. That's too much value. What other mastery gives you that much for 20 attributes? The only other one worth mentioning is Earth for EP.

Locking Rev behind a big Chk requirement means Hybrids will have to pay a heavy cost in Attributes to get it. WM/Med, for example, won't even be able to get Rev and Int Meds will have to give up an extra 15/20 stats, considering most get between 60-65 Chk.

[Clown]

5 hours ago, Mayhem said:

Poison Scalpel can be easily dodged by running diagonal. If you don't want to get flicker scalpeled, and then comboed, Try to not leave yourself open for attack.

This is a lie. Diag scalpel combo's are fully possible even by EU's (I can confirm Im EU) Its a jutsu that is busted rn and needs a nerf. How you go about nerfing it though is a different story. I suggest bringing back the old scalpel with the 8sec cd and old hitbox (except for the 2 extra tiles on the sides) just make it hit a lil harder with poison dots while nerfing overall damage and make it silence instead of stun GG.

[Black Rain]

7 hours ago, Sinnerman said:

I suggest bringing back the old scalpel with the 8sec cd and old

while increasing scalpel CD is the logical idea, watching most players who are int medics, they do not use scalpel on cooldown, or even close to cooldown. They use it with their flicker, which is 15s cd. Nerfing the CD only affects players who are really good with scalpel and use it effectively, leaving the "flicker scalpel carried" players pretty much untouched. As a nerf I don't think this is the way to go as it does not remove the frustration players feel about scalpel, which is the flicker scalpel combo.

[Black Rain]

6 hours ago, Sinnerman said:

This is a lie. Diag scalpel combo's are fully possible even by EU's

Diagonal scalpel can be landed on two scenarios:

1. The target turns as you flicker scalpel

2. The full-screen bug (on full screen with variable ping the flicker scalpel combo becomes undodgeable)

Otherwise, running in a straight diagonal is enough to dodge most players flicker scalpel combos

[Indra]

2 hours ago, Black Rain said:

Diagonal scalpel can be landed on two scenarios:

1. The target turns as you flicker scalpel

2. The full-screen bug (on full screen with variable ping the flicker scalpel combo becomes undodgeable)

Otherwise, running in a straight diagonal is enough to dodge most players flicker scalpel combos

With my ping and fps theres no way i miss a flicker scalpel combo even if the target runs diag tho.

[Clown]

11 hours ago, Black Rain said:

Diagonal scalpel can be landed on two scenarios:

1. The target turns as you flicker scalpel

2. The full-screen bug (on full screen with variable ping the flicker scalpel combo becomes undodgeable)

Otherwise, running in a straight diagonal is enough to dodge most players flicker scalpel combos

Thank you for the explenation  I'd also like to add that there are EU's that do hit scalpels even if you just run diagonally and yes ik you said MOST players, but the fact that EU players can land is still weird to me. I agree with the fact that the "flicker carried" medics (not gonna call anyone out *cough* sinnerman special *cough*) will get most of their scalpel damage from flicker but now with auto turning everyone and their mother can scalpel combo no flicker needed (as well as off sub). Which is why I suggested the extneded scalpel cd and nerf to base damage and the stun. It doesn't need the stun if you can already use it as an interrupt. That way good players can still utilize scalpel without seeing much of a drastic change. The only ones seeing a drastic change will be the ones relying on that scalpel punish/stun. And while all these changes may seem overkill I think that decreasing the base damage and making the DOT stronger would make it so that applying dots would be something medics would focus more on as thats what the mastery is supposed to be about. 

Agree to disagree ofc, this is all IMO.